May 3, 2023
Hydrogen is increasingly being recognised as a key player in the transition towards a low-carbon future. As a clean energy carrier, it has the potential to decarbonise a wide range of sectors including transportation, industrial processes, and heating. Hydrogen can be produced using renewable energy sources, such as wind or solar, and can be stored and transported as required. Its versatility and flexibility make it a useful alternative to direct electrification, particularly in hard-to-abate sectors such as heavy industry, aviation and shipping. However, scaling up the use of hydrogen requires significant investment in infrastructure and technology, and regulatory support from governments to enable its widespread adoption.
In this episode, Joe Davis, Associate Director at Foresight Group and William Mezzullo, Head of Hydrogen at Centrica explore the development of hydrogen as a vital part of the energy transition, what stands in its way, and what needs to be done to realise its full potential.
Key Takeaways include:
- Understanding the importance of the UK government’s new suite of policies addressing the drive to net zero.
- Understanding why a country’s hydrogen policy framework is one of the most important factors for informing investment decisions.
- Addressing whether the UK government is on the right track for supporting increased investment into hydrogen and whether this is competitive with other countries.
- Understand what is meant by hydrogen blending, and some of the main opportunities and challenges associated with it.
William Mezzullo is Head of Hydrogen at Centrica Energy Markets & Trading, and Chair of the Renewable Energy Association’s Green Gas & Hydrogen Forum. William is responsible for commercialising hydrogen development opportunities for Centrica. Prior to joining Centrica, he was a Fund Lead at JLEN, a FTSE 250 environmental fund. William has worked in the renewable energy industry since 2010, developing and building commercial-scale green gas anaerobic digestion plants, where he was Head of Projects at Future Biogas, one of the largest anaerobic digestion companies in the UK. He holds a PhD from the University of Bath in bioenergy.
Joe Davis is an Associate Director
at Foresight Group and a member of the Supervisory Board for HH2E
AG.
Prior to Foresight Group, Joe was an Investment Manager at Pensions
Infrastructure Platform Ltd, and a member of the financial
modelling and advisory team at DWPF. Joe has an MSci in physics
from Nottingham University and is a CFA Charterholder.
Joe Davis [00:00:04] Hello, and welcome to Foresight's Sustainability Podcast, a series that explores the sustainability themes that will play a crucial role in shaping our world in the current period of accelerated change. In this series, we'll be sitting down with industry experts to explore some of the major developments in sustainability related fields, and consider the challenges facing businesses in a new decade of climate action. With these sessions, we aim to inform and promote dialogue around the mainstreaming of sustainability. I'm your host, Joe Davis. I'm an Associate Director in the Infrastructure Investment Team here at Foresight. Today I'm joined by Will Mezzullo. Will is Head of Hydrogen at Centrica. Welcome Will, would you like to begin by telling us why Centrica is so interested in hydrogen, and about your role with the company?
Will Mezzullo [00:00:45] Hi Joe. Yeah, thanks very much. And really good to be here and thank you for the invitation. It's always really lovely to speak to you and the Foresight team. So yeah, I look after Centrica's hydrogen activities, across sort of the family of businesses that Centrica owns and looks after. So that's all the way from the whole value chain, from production of energy. So we manage 12 gigawatts of renewables across Europe and we're also building our own, all the way to sort of storing of energy, whether that's in gas or electricity form. We've got batteries, we've got things like rough storage facility where we do store, I think it's the largest sort of gas storage operating facility at the moment in the UK, all the way to transporting it, moving that energy and then optimising and delivering it for our customers. So yeah, our hydrogen activities really span across the whole value chain of energy, and that reflects where our participation is. When we look at hydrogen, we look at it as a tool to help us understand how do I decarbonise that particular part of the value chain, and how does hydrogen help overcome any decarbonisation barriers that we have encountered or the industry has encountered over these number of years?We never see hydrogen as a single silver bullet. I don't think we'd see any renewables as a single silver bullet, and the test of time over the last 15 years is a reflection of that. But we do recognise that hydrogen has a role to play. We also recognise that some roles are more developed than others, and we shouldn't sort of put barriers or close any doors. So yeah, that's what we do in Centrica and our activities around hydrogen.
Joe Davis [00:02:10] Yeah, great to talk to you and looking forward to our discussion. Can you tell us about some of the projects that Centrica is currently working on within hydrogen?
Will Mezzullo [00:02:19] Yeah, sure. So when Centrica looks at hydrogen and gets involved in different places to participate, I guess it's a reflection of where Centrica sits in terms of the energy value chain. And I have to say I've never worked for a company that's so across the whole value chain of energy, so all the way from sort of producing, from renewables, to taking gas from different parts of the world, to storing it, to moving it around, to then balancing it, optimising it, and then supplying it to customers, both private individuals, residents and commercial customers. And so when we then look at that value chain and we apply hydrogen to it, there's a role that hydrogen can play in all of those areas. And really that is where Centrica is focusing its efforts. It's first of all understanding how can hydrogen help me overcome some of the barriers in that particular value chain and how do I decarbonise that part? And then where can I apply the strength of Centrica and sort of the bits of other parts of Centrica to sort of help develop that part? Because hydrogen is is still incredibly nascent as an energy vector, as a use for an energy. But understanding sort of the benefit it can bring in decarbonisation is key. So it's a bit of a long winded answer to say we've got a number of projects across the whole value chain, and I'm happy to go through in more detail, but really it's important to recognise we don't see one silver bullet, one single silver bullet for hydrogen, but we do see that there is a potential for hydrogen to help play decarbonisation roles in all sectors.
Joe Davis [00:03:48] Yeah, it's an interesting perspective, isn't it? I guess because you're able to see all of these different parts of the energy value chain and I think everyone involved in the hydrogen industry is expecting it to play a big role generally, but working out exactly how all of the different pieces of the system fit together is very complex and probably one of the more complex parts of this transition. So Centrica's role, or the breadth of Centrica's activities across the whole value chain is really, really interesting perspective to have.
Will Mezzullo [00:04:19] Yeah, agree. I mean, one of the most exciting things that we look at hydrogen is its ability to store, in terawatt hour forms ,you know, serious amount of storage. I think Centrica was one of the first companies in the UK to install batteries, grid connected batteries, and we're very proud of that heritage. But really understanding the the difference between gigawatt hours of storage and terawatt hours of storage. And when you look at it totally makes sense to be able to sort of store large amounts of energy seasonally at the time of the year when you don't need it, store it in the form of hydrogen, and then use it in different parts of the year. On paper, that totally makes sense. And we see things like the Committee of Climate Change making significant reference to long duration energy storage of hydrogen. In practice though, that is quite a complicated process to actually convert, for example, like our rough storage facility, to convert that to hydrogen. To convert all the infrastructure and to make the infrastructure available to take hydrogen, and store hydrogen, and then use that hydrogen for energy. It does take an enormous amount of effort and policy implementation. And then actually this is the sort of, these are the areas that we're focusing on.
Joe Davis [00:05:23] Yeah, I guess it's a reflection of the need for that unified transition approach. You know, you can't just have one part of the entire value chain transitioning independently. You need the whole breadth of the chain transitioning together. And I think that energy storage piece is a very good example. You mentioned the policy environment there. In the UK the government announced about a month or so ago a suite of policies that were called Powering Up Britain. I'd be interested in your views on some of these announcements and how they have affected Centrica. Just for some of our listeners who might not know some of the hydrogen specific details. Some of the key headlines to come out of that was in relation to CCUS. This is clearly a massive part of the Government's strategy for decarbonisation with two industrial clusters, one on the east coast of England called East Coast Cluster, and one on the north west of England, called HyNet, forming a big part of the plans to decarbonise industry. The government restated a pot of £20 billion annual funding to help get CCUS off the ground. They also announced the eight projects shortlisted for negotiations as part of track one, of which five are from HyNet and three were from the East Coast Cluster. The Government also announced an expansion or potential expansion of track one later this year, and indicated timelines for track two as well. Specifically in hydrogen, the Government also announced a shortlist of 20 projects that will move to the next stage of the hydrogen business model process, with awards expected to be announced in Q4 this year. The Government also announced a second round of this hydrogen business model process, expected to award 750 megawatts of capacity in 2025. And lastly, the government also announced 15 projects successful in strand one and strand two funding applications. So a whole raft of policy measures designed to help take hydrogen and industrial decarbonisation to the next stage of their development. What did you and the wider Centrica business make of all of these?
Will Mezzullo [00:07:18] Well, I mean, just going through that list, yeah, absolutely, it's a wide range of announcements. And for them all to come up on one day, is positive for the industry. It shows the commitment from government and it shows that they're still planning ahead with all of their plans, both in terms of all the different elements of hydrogen. I think from an industry perspective, and this is, I should say, I also have a few other hats, I chair the Hydrogen and Biomethane Group in Renewable Energy Association and also the Electrolytic Working Group in Hydrogen UK. So I do spend a lot of my time listening to members of those associations because I do feel that they are a good barometer of where they feel government is going and the pace is going. And I think, for the winners of, or the ones who have been shortlisted in those announcements, that those announcements would have been, of course, really welcome news. And for the ones who haven't been shortlisted but may not necessarily be told you're not happening, then that uncertainty, that really doesn't help. And I think we've learnt a lot, and I've come from the renewable energy sector, I've spent all my career in renewable since sort of late 2000s. And one thing that we've repeatedly always told government is don't leave industry, especially emerging industries, in suspense. Because effectively these companies are cash flowing, a lot of development costs, a lot of overheads that are being incurred and having visibility early on of understanding, you know, has this been worth it. Are we still good to go. So I would probably call on government to make sure that that track one cluster announcement later on this year actually happen at a really rapid time. I think the surprise is why does it have to happen later on? Effectively, if you look at sort of blue hydrogen - let's take a step back. UK government has got a target of one gigawatt blue, one gigawatt green by 2025 in construction. They've now shortlisted for blue about, what, 600 megawatts. So they're short. And you know, let's get on and carry on those announcements. So I think the industry is saying, yeah, we're really pleased with the announcements, the pace that has happened, but actually we could do with understanding what the next steps are. Obviously that's not, the ones who haven't been shortlisted, being very clear from a government perspective around what was it that didn't make it to the shortlist and understand what is it that government is looking for for these projects. If we take the strand threes that have been shortlisted. So, the government has shortlisted of 408 megawatts of projects, and they're going to have to bring that down to 250 megawatts. Now that does take time, it's going to be an assessment of different projects, but those developers really do merit to understand early on have they been successful, or do they need to think about moving on to another project. I do feel always for the small scale, sort of the early developers. I have a real strong allegiance with them, because obviously I was one of them in the biogas sector. But I do feel they've done an enormous amount for the biogas sector, the wind and solar sector, that we have today. So, the large companies like Centrica perhaps can stomach a certain amount of sort of development costs and waiting for government. But actually it's also just making sure that government is able to work with even the smaller scale developers. And I think that bringing forward those announcements is going to be key.
Joe Davis [00:10:25] Yeah, some very interesting points there actually. And I totally agree regarding the point around confidence levels and not leaving industry waiting. I mean, this is such an early emerging business, or industry rather, that all of these developers, big or small, are all working on the assumption that government policy will continue to be supportive and aligned to what they're trying to achieve. And announcing targets and then falling short, or announcing delivery dates and then delaying, all of that stuff would only ever increase uncertainty and make investors less likely to commit. So I think it's a really important point and it can't be expressed enough. I'd be curious to understand your views on how the international policy landscape sits or looks. We hear a lot of noise around the different support regimes and incentive mechanisms announced internationally, from the IRA in the US, to the various mechanisms of EU and EU country level. For Foresight, we generally consider this to be the most important factor before we consider investing, particularly in hydrogen, in the fact it's such an emerging industry. Do you feel like the UK government is on the right track, do you think it's competitive with these other countries?
Will Mezzullo [00:11:37] Yes, it's a good question. I mean, this is, what you've said I think is really valid as a message to government, is actually any credible infrastructure investor investing in a sector like this will follow where the strongest policy and the strongest government commitments are. And that's not through greed, or it's not for, it's just simply because this is such an emerging and new technology and new market, and gluing bits of other sectors together to decarbonise energy. For investors who I have to say have done an enormous amount to help decarbonise where we are today. If it wasn't for investors, we wouldn't have the levels of cost of capital of renewables that we have today. And so, the signals that are coming from different governments, I share the same view with you, which are very critical. Your question was where do we stand as a UK compared to the international perspective? I suppose the unique thing about Centrica is, one of the things is we're very technology agnostic. And so again, when we look at sort of the colours of hydrogen, which are, we're, I'm actively trying to move away, as we all are, but nevertheless we do always stumble on, it sounds a lot easier to say than the low carbon hydrogen standard that its emits. So we're agnostic on, as long as it's low carbon, we're agnostic on colour, but we're also agnostic on where the hydrogen's come from. So we have a Global LNG, Liquefied Natural Gas, team that is actively looking at the global seaborne ammonia shipping. And that, for us, is very exciting. When we see strong stimulations from governments such as in the US with the IRA, and in Europe, where we can start seeing, well actually we can start bringing effectively the wind and the sun from different parts of the world, where the resources might be greater or their policy mechanisms may be more widely developed. And we can help facilitate decarbonisation in this country. Equally, we also see, we have a team in the company called Centrica Energy Assets that is rolling out one gigawatt of solar and batteries and acres. We also see the really strong synergy with that team around building out small scale, or relatively small scale green hydrogen production. So the answer is I still believe we're a sector as a country, which is from an investor appetite perspective, attractive. You know, we set out, I say we, the government, set out an ambitious hydrogen strategy. Doubled then its commitments through the energy security strategy. And let's be honest, has fulfilled its commitments to say it's rolled out the hydrogen business model, it's rolled out the low carbon hydrogen standards to get full transparency. And then the third one, I can't quite remember, if it's rolled out the net zero hydrogen fund. So it's doing everything it said. I think what's happened in between that, is we've had a change of leadership in government, the energy bill, which has gone slower than a lot of the investors in the sector really would have wanted. And that really doesn't help investor confidence. So I think there are areas that we are falling behind, and I think the 30th March announcements, I hope, and I think gave investors good comfort. But I think when you then look at actually the energy bill is still going through the processes and that underpins the levy, there's still a few things that need to be sewn up and get the sector going to sort of keep the momentum going. But I think it's also recognising the scale at which the UK and the ambitions of hydrogen in the UK versus sort of US and other international players. The scale is quite significant. The difference between it. But I think the UK is really, you know, from its £20 billion announcement that it did on the 30th March, really does show that its commitment is very strong.
Joe Davis [00:15:10] Yeah, I think I would again agree with much of what you said there, it's, I think the UK Government has built a very credible foundation in terms of its hydrogen strategy and wider industrial decarbonisation strategy. I would agree that it's, by and large, delivered on what it said it would do under its timelines that were set out as part of that strategy. I think the rest of the world has moved at its own pace as well, and it's really critical now that in a competitive global landscape, each country moves kind of as fast and as ambitious as it can do. But my own area I've been thinking about a lot at the moment is expected realignment of industrial capacity. So a movement away from the cheap energy of the past and towards the cheap energy of the future. I see companies such as the H2 Green Steel Project in northern Sweden as being a really great example of what the future looks like. With large scale industrial capacity moving to areas where there's cheap renewable energy. And for me it just really underlines the importance of countries getting their energy transition policy right, as otherwise there's just going to be a deindustrialisation, a move to countries or locations that have the better policy and the better natural resources. And I think the UK has got fantastic resources, the North Sea and the offshore wind track record that's been built up over the last decade or two. I think the hydrogen policy is credible and generally in the right lines, but I think the Government really has to recognise that it's a very dynamic, very competitive global landscape. And if you don't move fast enough and strong enough, there's a danger that this once in a generation shift of industrial capacity can just move in a way that's not favourable for you.
Will Mezzullo [00:16:52] Yeah, I agree. And you've touched on something which is really quite interesting, which is, at the moment when I suppose UK government is looking at sort of hydrogen and, I think as an industry we should recognise the effort the government is putting into trying to make hydrogen happen. But we look at hydrogen production, hydrogen storage, hydrogen transport and then hydrogen use, dare I say, I still think in quite siloed fashion. So when we look at, for example, how do I make the most of my resource, renewable resource. Like as an example, last year the country, we curtailed four terawatt hours of renewables. Most of that renewables was in Scotland and in the north. So, if you were sort of just looking at it from a production focus, you'd say, well, let me focus my production of green hydrogen just in the north. Then you'd say, What am I going to do with that hydrogen? Let me try and get the industry come up north. And we've challenge this as well. And we're working really closely with National Gas Transmission, the owners of our great transmission infrastructure system. And we are doing a whole systems analysis to actually show, well, actually, what about if we did overlay their plans of a hydrogen backbone across the country? Imagine if that did happen, what would our hydrogen landscape look like in the future? So say, for example, if you had a hydrogen pipe that ran from Scotland all the way down to Cornwall, you could still take that curtailed power and you can convert that into hydrogen. And you can move that energy, that excess energy in the form of a molecule, and actually you can then bring it at different parts of the country to go and meet those industrial customers. And that's a good way of sort of linking hydrogen production, transportation and use. But then you think well, actually, what about if I connect that backbone to really large storage, like salt caverns and rough? Well, that allows me to build more renewables where actually a renewable resource is really abundant, allow it to be converted into hydrogen, stored, and then we can use that hydrogen at times of the year when the wind's not blowing, the sun's shining. I have a, being an ex-renewable energy developer, I have a real issue when I get told saying "I want you to stick a renewable energy facility where there is less renewable resource but the greater demand". And I'm thinking, I was always built in my brain to maximise the renewable resource. That was the best thing. And so I do think when you look at hydrogen together in these four areas - production, storage, transportation and use - when you bring them together, I think you can actually start saying ok, I can start seeing how that cluster can be decarbonised with that offshore wind, and how that storage can help, and how actually blue hydrogen has a real role to play of sort of bang for your buck, quick decarbonisation of clusters. But yeah, yeah, it's a really, really important point of how do you link industry to production.
Joe Davis [00:19:31] Yeah, I think it just shows the importance of that whole system of thinking, doesn't it. The simple buckets of the past where you've got an electricity system with generation, and transmission, and distribution, and you've got a gas system with production, transmission, and distribution, and the two generally don't necessarily move in tandem. That's going to be increasingly less the case. And joining up the whole system in a way that's going to drive the lowest cost and the simplest, quickest transition is just going to be so important. On a related note, I was wanting to ask you a bit about hydrogen blending. This is a pretty big topic at the moment with pretty strong views from many people across the industry. We've seen in recent weeks a number of high profile reports and letters that have argued against it. I think there is a paper, or there was a paper, a letter issued by a think tank a few weeks ago arguing strongly against it. At the same time, Jane Toogood, the hydrogen champion for government, has issued a report that is largely supportive of it. I was really interested in Centrica's view on the topic. I do know from previous discussions, with you Will, that you're pretty strongly supportive of blending, but I was wondering if you could perhaps talk to a bit why that is, and your views on how you think it could be done cost effectively for the end user?
Will Mezzullo [00:20:45] Yeah, sure. Blending is a funny one. It's my pet favourite subject, I actually, I was a massive fan of hydrogen blending even before I joined Centrica, so it's one of these things that actually I've champion internally, sort of explained the rationale, and really, because again Centrica being technology agnostic, I had my own fair share of internal "explain to me how this makes sense and how this creates value for money". So I, hands down, I'm a huge believer of that hydrogen blending will help facilitate. Now the interesting thing is when we speak to the critics or when they at least are willing to have a chat with us about it, the main concern is, is this good value for money? And if you look at the concept, I'm going to take this valuable, high pressure, sort of niche product gas and I'm going to waste it into the gas grid. And that just makes absolutely no sense. That's sort of really the way they start. I suppose where I start is, and again, I'm going back to my renewable energy development days, and I look at a project trying to start in hydrogen. We want to see hydrogen projects start so we can get the levelized cost of hydrogen down. So the more projects that we have, the more electrolyser operating experience there is, the more the investor market gets comfortable with the risks, the more it de-risks, and the lower the cost of capital having to enter these markets. When I look at that and I look at the first projects that are happening. So, you know, you've got a green hydrogen development opportunity, an offtaker, or two offtakers. The way the mechanisms are set up in the UK is that you potentially, if your project is eligible, you potentially might receive government support, called the hydrogen business model, which will allow you to cover your operating costs and make a return on investment. Now, if you have a hydrogen producer and you are relying on one offtaker or two offtakers, your project effectively is at a higher risk of that, it's effectively based on the operating profile of that offtaker. If you're not able to sort of have a secondary offtaker or another way to sell your hydrogen, it adds an element of risk onto the project. Which if you were allowed to blend that hydrogen into the grid, it would de-risk that project. From first hand experience. So I did a biogas project many years ago and I sent the biogas to a Centre Parcs village. And that village, we supplied them heat and power. When that Centre Parcs village was down, we made sure that we had a grid connection, that we could export electricity. If that grid connection wasn't there, that project risk profile would have been significantly higher. Which would have meant that our investor risk return would have been a lot higher. Now, if that is the case, and the way the mechanism works now for supporting these projects, it means that the subsidy that you're looking for from the government is actually higher. Because you're having to accommodate this higher risk cost of capital. And so if you were trying to find a way, how do I de-risk these projects? How do I get good operating hours under my belt of an electrolyser. And how do I get the market to advance quickly? Blending really has, can offer a lot of that support. I guess it's a little bit like if 15 years ago the government said, Yeah, you can roll out wind, and you can roll out solar, and we can give you a support mechanism. But you have to private wire those renewables to the customer and you're not allowed to connect to the grid. If that mechanism was there, which is basically what people are trying to say, how hydrogen should start now, I just don't think we would have got to where we are in terms of the risk profile of wind and solar. So I look at it from a completely different approach, which is actually I want to bring value for money pretty quickly, and I want to get these projects de-risked. I want people to say, Oh, Electrolysers, Yeah, they've been operating for thousands and thousands of operating hours, different scales and it's been totally fine. And that then allows really quite cost competitive cost of capital. So that's really my rationale for it.
Joe Davis [00:24:25] Yeah, that's really interesting. I guess you could almost argue that you don't even need to actually blend any hydrogen into the system, but just having that as a option reduces the cost of capital and that directly impacts the level of support, reduces the level of support required from government and therefore makes it cheaper. So just the sheer fact that it's an option can have a positive impact.
Will Mezzullo [00:24:48] Absolutely. I mean, a great example we see on biomethane sites is - biogas is a really interesting technology, albeit small, but it's gone through a lot of the learning curves and actually a lot of biomethane, a lot of AD, anaerobic digestion plants, started life in the UK, making a biogas and then burning that biogas to make electricity. And then over time, government and industry quickly realised, actually, I've got a better use for that stuff. Let me convert it and inject it to the grid. But now we're seeing more and more biomethane plants that are injected in the grid, but actually more of that gas is actually being diverted for refuelling purposes. And in fact I think Foresight are linked to CNG fuels and decarbonising the heavy goods sector. Now that sector, the heavy goods sector, wouldn't have access to green biomethane if it wasn't for the market stimulation mechanisms earlier on to allow biomethane to be injected into the grid, to allow that industry to start. So where we start a sector may not end up where we want it to go. Or it may end up being better. But I do find that in the hydrogen sector, the critics sort of try and foresee what we're going to look like as a hydrogen sector in ten years time. And you think, Well, we never did that in renewables. I'm not sure what we're going to gain from this. So, yeah, it's a challenge, but I'm positive we're going to overcome it.
Joe Davis [00:26:01] Yeah, my sense is that there's, the growth of the hydrogen sector is already complex enough. There's already enough moving parts and emerging bits of the value chain that need to be brought together to make a successful project work, and to make the industry as a whole work. What we should be doing is bringing down barriers as much as possible, and then allowing the market to organise itself in a way that results in the lowest, you know, an efficient market and therefore the lowest cost to the end user. To me, including additional barriers one way or another, is only ever going to drive up the cost. So, to use your example of wind and solar 15 years ago only being allowed to private wire, if we introduced that as a restriction on hydrogen, then we're basically saying every project has to find its specific offtaker. There's no market or there's no room for shippers and so on. And the market as a whole can't take on a kind of national look. Everything is bespoke and bilateral, and that's just inherently going to be less efficient. So yeah, I completely agree with you. I think cost wise, undoubtedly you can put together a good case as to why in certain circumstances direct electrification is more efficient. But I think to me that's focusing on a specific use case and not seeing the wider, holistic benefits that efficient markets and reduced barriers to entry can have to the sector as a whole system. One final question for you, Will, in the few minutes we've got left, just a bit of an open ended one, but I'd be interested to hear about something that you've learned recently, that's really exciting you about the hydrogen sector. A new technology, a new project, a new piece of better regulation, anything really.
Will Mezzullo [00:27:40] Yeah, and it's a good question. I think technology is something that I've always been really interested in and in hydrogen, the technology, I suppose innovation cycle is really still happening quite abundantly. So, which is, makes the market quite challenging. Because you're trying to deploy a project, you're trying to build a project, but actually you know that some of the technology you might use for that may not be the sort of best in kind or the best available technology later on in two years down the line. But that's the price you pay sort of being a first mover. When we look at, I suppose I'm not going to pinpoint a segment, but the ones that really get me excited are the technologies that are coming through driving the efficiency of electrolysers, and I think that's still got a long way to go. But actually the progress that's happened even with a market that really hasn't sort of deployed in anger, certainly in the UK, the development cycle of electrolytic production technologies is making real progress and particularly around also not just the efficiency but around the use of seawater, around the use of sort of, there's another technology that actually even an electrolyser technology that uses sewage sludge, which actually uses some of the organic material inside the sludge to help convert the electrolytic hydrogen and use less electricity, but actually use the cellulose in the sewage. So those kind of technologies, I think, crikey, that's really quite exciting. And actually, crikey, we really need it. Some of them, in other renewables. When you think, ok, I've got the technology, and I've got to a level, and now I've just got to deploy it. And there's still a bit of a technology drive, but then you think actually, what's the cost benefit analysis of that, yeah, for other technologies, the sector's so developed, I might as well just adopt, I can probably squeeze a bit more efficiency and maybe squeeze it, but it's just not, I'm happy where I am. But hydrogen is different, isn't it, hydrogen still has this enormous technology drive and efficiency across the whole sort of supply chain and value chain of sort of hydrogen, even derivatives is still got some way to go. And I think as long as people recognise that, and I think governments recognise that that's a role to play, there's probably a role for government to play in that as well, around innovation, funding and that sort of stuff. But those kind of technologies really do get me quite excited.
Joe Davis [00:29:46] Yeah, it's an amazingly untapped world of potential researcher, isn't it. I mean hydrogen is more or less everywhere, you know, a huge proportion of the objects and materials we see in everyday life, hydrocarbons, water and everything else. So the fact that it's never been an important focus in the past, or at least at a scale which it currently is. This means there's so much potential opportunity for exploring production techniques.
Will Mezzullo [00:30:10] Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
Joe Davis [00:30:11] Excellent. Cool. Well, thank you very much Will, it's been great chatting to you. I appreciate you taking the time.
Will Mezzullo [00:30:16] Thank you. Yeah, it's, likewise. Thank you.
Joe Davis [00:30:19] Look forward to the next time.